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Post by Nature Boy on May 4, 2018 4:49:26 GMT -5
A spot for general chat about version 2 so the other threads don't get too cluttered with off topic things.
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Post by genocide on May 4, 2018 10:10:14 GMT -5
Will there be actual siege maps/battles in this version, or will everything be field battles like the current version?
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Post by Nature Boy on May 4, 2018 21:43:29 GMT -5
There will be siege battles. That is something I will get to later. There was originally supposed to be siege battles in this one, but I just recently noticed I never put what there was in the Battle Rules... oops...
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Post by Nature Boy on May 5, 2018 9:43:49 GMT -5
Minor thing, can anyone think of a different name for the Granary? With the Japanese setting, may something like Rice Fields?
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Post by samuraigaiden on May 5, 2018 22:05:02 GMT -5
You always just call it a Paddy. Adding another paddy to your fields would increase the maximum amount of rice growable.
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Post by genocide on May 6, 2018 7:10:42 GMT -5
What about having a Rice Exchange? Allowing you to purchase or sell food from or to neighboring domains?
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Post by samuraigaiden on May 17, 2018 11:47:08 GMT -5
Hey, here's a bit of thought. Especially since we've kind of discussed soldiers belonging to specific officers, rather than to an overarching kingdom/clan.
What if we start the game with all NPC rulers? No PC rulers at start. All of us PCs will start on equal grounds and if we want to rule, we'll have to topple our masters Gekokuji style.
Have a few more major NPCs like Hosokawa, Yamana, the two Ashikaga factions, and the Hatakeyama and then minor warlords in each other location.
We could open the story to just as the Onin War begins and, essentially, we PCs would be the various Kokujin and Jizamurai of the realm - about to be called into service and make our mark on things. Kind of like how Yagyu Muneyoshi was just the kokujin in charge of the Yagyu-zato until Oda Nobunaga came through town and he had to decide who to throw his hat in with; a couple generations later and his descendant is the highest ranking swordsman in the land - the Shogun's personal fencing instructor.
Thoughts on that?
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Post by Nature Boy on May 19, 2018 7:37:12 GMT -5
Something like that would be interesting to do. I would be up for it. Part of my worry for that is the NPCs kingdoms would be able to out-produce the PCs at a pretty decent pace, especially if it gets past early game. Maybe make the changes to the background points to help balance that in the early game?
Question regarding statting NPCs though. Do people like how they are right now, with their obvious balanced specializations, or would we want to change it to a more random approach? I had another system made up where there are "Poor" "Average" and "Good" NPCs, and the random stat lines of the NPCs would total 150;200;250 respectively. With the NPCs also getting 1;3;5 skills as well, opposed to the random 1-4 skills for now.
ALSO, I will probably need some help in statting any significant NPCs.
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Post by samuraigaiden on May 20, 2018 12:27:06 GMT -5
Something like that would be interesting to do. I would be up for it. Part of my worry for that is the NPCs kingdoms would be able to out-produce the PCs at a pretty decent pace, especially if it gets past early game. Maybe make the changes to the background points to help balance that in the early game? We could always make the NPC forces be static. Give them a base level of strength, and then as we PCs develop they will eventually be outpaced by us. Question regarding statting NPCs though. Do people like how they are right now, with their obvious balanced specializations, or would we want to change it to a more random approach? I had another system made up where there are "Poor" "Average" and "Good" NPCs, and the random stat lines of the NPCs would total 150;200;250 respectively. With the NPCs also getting 1;3;5 skills as well, opposed to the random 1-4 skills for now. The way the NPCs work now is a little wonky. There seem to be so many that are nonsensical. Folks with a stat average of 40 in Lead and War having Charge or Raid, folks with a 47 in Cha having Recruiter, etc. It's part of why I think skills should increase the success chance of a tactic, rather than allowing the tactic to be used. Look at poor Rolf from my crew: Rolf (16) 71-38-36-49-56 Charge, Iron Willed, Rally Let's put him up against a character with 10 Lead and 60 War - a really crappy character, quite frankly. Rolf has a 3.9/12 chance to get the skill to work; so ~33% chance. Then on top of that if it does go off, he could force himself into a 38 vs 60 duel, which he's almost guaranteed to lose. So he'll never use that skill. So what about Rally? He has a 2.8/14 chance to get it to work; that'd be basically ~2% chance to work. Much as enjoy the character, simply because he was the first NPC I hired with a stat over 70, he's a really useless guy. Of course, with no battle tactics actually be based entirely on Lead, any NPC with high lead means nothing. Rolf could never be useful in any situation, regardless of what skills he had. Only thing he's good for is Patrolling, because he gets +6 Safety; which is comparable to Thorfinn's 80 Lead due to how the formula works. But the fact that Lead is an almost useless stat on its own is a topic for a different discussion, I suppose. The point of my diatribe is that: NPCs in this game are wonky. ALSO, I will probably need some help in statting any significant NPCs. Can do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 20:51:25 GMT -5
just a quick question. are you going with the same chr build rules like 1066? i felt there was a tad to many throw away builds. like day one maxed out top three stats.
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Post by genocide on Jul 19, 2018 9:33:07 GMT -5
Yeah I saw that too, people min-maxing like all hell, and then most of them bounced and didn't end up playing. My guess? There was no real sense of character progression for them to keep them playing.
You could make stat brackets based on various roles or backgrounds for the player characters, and have people capped differently at start to keep them from min-maxing. This of course wouldn't affect growth to a hard-cap set by the game's progression, it might give people more impetus to stay and actually play. I think a lot of people joined, made min-maxed characters, realized there was no challenge left and then packed up.
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Post by genocide on Jul 19, 2018 9:49:56 GMT -5
Another thing, with plentiful NPCs at the command of a ruler, people can make lightning advances through provinces, conquering one a turn practically and end the game real fast before any kind of story has a chance to really develop around the state of the land. Maybe make it harder to come by NPCs, or give factions a cap on how many they can have some how. The thing that's bothering me right now with v1 right now is that there are still two forces left in the land, the country isn't actually united, its split between a foreigner and a native, and yet the game is ending soon. Just doesn't really seem satisfying that two lesbian lovers are splitting the country in two and agreeing to coexist for eternity when their two cultures are so different, one is bent on unification to end war, and the other is bent on conquest for glory. It seems like there should be more of a conflict.
Another issue, kingdom management conducted only by one person doesn't really give the other players much to do, and could be one reason why we saw so many people sign up, and then leave to never return. Maybe kingdom turns could be handled by the ruler and then a collection of Player-character governors, each one turning in the turn for their respective posts. Perhaps even according to dictates set by the ruler of the faction. PT's just seemed to be a sort of waste of time considering the fact they never really affected much of anything unless you were learning a skill, which took a long time, or increasing your stat pool, which, depending on your skills and attribute levels, also took a long time. And it never really encouraged RP. People show up for the PT but don't do anything else. So this version felt more like a game between like 3 people, rather than 20 collaborating on a story.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 12:31:26 GMT -5
First off....lol to the lesbian lovers thing. I was not around for v1 so I don't know the story. But that made me laugh.
I love the giving players responsibility idea. It mimics the actual idea behind feudalism. Each player made to govern thier turn can set tasks for thier NPCs ir such. Plus they controll thier army's in thier Fife. The only thing is. This relys on more players or burden the staff with npcs. Which is not bad. If the staff likes to rp it will give plenty of opportunities to do so lol. Each npc can be given a number 1-5 indecating secretly thier agreeability to do as others command.
On the note of Chr stats. Perhaps we can chose background wheights. We can have a present of backgrounds. Kinda like rimworld. You chose your age. Judging by that, you get one or two selections. Younger gets more exp development over time while older Chr get more exp to start. Just a idea I came up with while pooping.
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Post by Titania on Jul 19, 2018 13:54:12 GMT -5
I know going into this it was a first for the Admin. Play testing was supposed to have numerous people, and all but one bailed.
I agree that maybe we should have some kind of cap regarding NPCs, and again with the min-maxing. There were often times, as a ruler, that I felt I was having to rely on my generals (in particular the other PC generals) to cover the areas that my character was not as skilled at - namely Leadership and Strength. While in the beginning I was struggling to make sure I had people to cover those areas, it also added a little more strategy to what I was doing. Lillian was never bent on unifying England, she was bent on getting her revenge and being able to live out the rest of her days in peace - hence the alliance. Which, might I add, was done well before the lesbian lover agreement. This fits with her ideals of not having to fight anymore, and being able to live in peace while the country as a whole prospers.
Regarding Kingdom management - as a PC you have the option to remain an independent force, and using you and your NPCs actions in the PT. If you are part of a kingdom, I know at least I tried to leave the floor open for your suggestions as to what you would have liked to do. I never received much feedback in that regard, so I just placed you where I thought you would be best utilized, along with Phailak and Arya. The main reason turns take so long, is at this point there is only the admin running everything. In the next version, I will be joining him as staff, and have a simple PC in play. So with it being only him, and with the personal events that have been going on, he has been pretty tied up and bogged down - hence me moving into a staff position.
I think the worry accompanied with the giving players responsibility idea is what we have seen already here a few times. Take Gwynedd, for example. The original ruler, for reasons unknown, stepped down to a new one (marriage, I think? Not entirely sure still). From there, things seemed to pick up, and then suddenly they all left when Lillian and her armies pressed the march on. Looking at the city stats, they could have defended, and potentially won, especially if they had actually put in a KT that month. If the player gets caught up in something, or just drops the game, what happens to that character, along with any NPCs or followers or arms accompanied with him? Especially if they are having to contribute to the game in such a way? I think that if we do something like that, there should definitely be an option where if the player doesn't input the information they need to, the ruler can input on their behalf - maybe it can be something they discuss in personal messages when the player joins. Because it's hard to have a story formed by 20 people when only 4 or 5 get on to contribute.
I like the idea of the background selections based on age. The older you are, the more experience you have, but the less experience you gain over time. Also, if you're quite old, a better chance of injury or the like. The younger you are, the less experience you start with, but the more you gain over time, with a slightly smaller risk of injury. We would have to keep an eye on the experience gain aspect though, as that could get out of hand. In regards to the min-maxing, maybe have it be so that you can't have more than one stat at or above a 90, and no more than two at or above 70, and then there's the remaining two stats?
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Post by genocide on Jul 19, 2018 14:02:07 GMT -5
Well, it seems to be ongoing deadskin, Titania and Samuraigaiden's characters are both women, and seem to be getting on famously. I don't have a problem with it, if you want to RP falling in love, go ahead, it's an interesting break from the usual monotony, but they played it into an alliance, a game-ending one at that. Now V1 is still going on, so I don't know where exactly it will take us, but if it ends the game without a real concrete, satisfying ending, all I can hope for is that in v2 some of these issues are addressed.
The player responsibility idea is not exactly novel or new, it has been around for a while on other RP games I have played and modded/administrated on. Basically the game wasn't set up to revolve around numbers so much and was more about the narrative aspect, which in turn, kept people coming back as long as they weren't getting just absolutely shit on in game. But even in a game based more primarily on numbers and manipulation of statistical data like this one (I guess that's why it's called a Sim and not just an RPG?) splitting up the responsibility for management gives players something to do, and more importantly something to strive for. You have an ambition to move up? Well now you've got something to do it for other than just bragging rights or feeling like an important character in an ongoing story. Me? I've been RPing for a while, so I'm used to writing just to tell a story, but some people like to have some kind of progression to things. Otherwise RP just turns into filler chapters in something like a manga or book, just another side story.
So basically, if the game allows for people to take on more responsibility, it in turn gives them a reason to come back to the site. Samuraigaiden's and Titania's factions are the only two real player factions remaining, and most of their so-called PC officers are now just shiny NPC's, being played by the ruler while the person who owns them is in no way involved with the site! It doesn't reflect well, especially on a site where the population is about 20 - 30 people at most to begin with. Since people's characters can be used in battle, the game progresses, even without the RP that this site is designed to have. Which, well, frankly makes it seem like a ghost-town instead of a community.
What I propose is this:
1. Limit the number of controllable NPCs somehow. This will prevent people from just steamrolling other players and encourage RP.
2. Give players some kind of progression tied to the game mechanics of governance. This will give players something to strive for in their play of the game and who knows, maybe encourage them to bring other people into the game.
3. Introduce more RP opportunity tied to the game. The tournament idea was great, it gave people a reason to be here, both bragging rights and game incentive to participate if you had the balls. Perhaps more quest lines could be introduced for specific areas, thus opening up RP with game incentives not tied to the main objective of conquering the map.
4. Introduce a fatigue mechanic. By this, I mean a people's fatigue for constant warring, such as a penalty for long, ongoing wars without decisive victories to rejuvenate morale. Perhaps the food mechanic could be reworked to include a single harvest once a year, thus forcing players who are rulers to carefully manage stockpiles of resources, thus preventing people from conquering at a break-neck pace without ANY sort of penalty at all. Think about Nobunaga's Ambition: Tiashi for example, the Aggression mechanic is like a country's over all appetite for war, the higher it is, boosted by decisive victories and conquering territory the more willing the populace is to fight for you, the lower it is, or the longer the war goes on, the more likely people are to rebel, thus forcing some kind of inter-weaved diplomacy like temporary ceasefires. This could also provide more RP opportunity as it leads to political intrigues that can change how the map looks.
5. Somehow prevent min-maxing. It's far too easy to just go with followers, min-max your main character to be god like at war or administration and then make your NPCs pick up the slack. This makes the game too easy and if everyone did it, any faction that got more than a couple of these accounts would easily overpower all other factions around them, leading to a massive power imbalance, thus leading to the game ending really quickly. Not satisfying as an RP experience in my opinion. You could have stat brackets for characters, give them some mid-range NPCs if the player so chooses, and then let them spend however many skill points they have as they wish. Random rolls on stats might be a little more work for the staff, but it could prevent min-maxing all together.
What do you think?
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